Adult stem treatment for dogs

[sp1d3rdan]

Animals including horses, dogs, and cats are now getting stem cell treatments for as little as 2 to 3000 dollars per treatment. This process includes extraction of the stem cells from their fat tissue.

When are humans going to get the same treatments? It's been used in horses for 4 years now for orthopedic injuries. How long does it take to translate this to humans in this country? I for one am sad that other countries and other living beings are getting better treatments than we are. Yet our country discovered stem cells first.

http://www.oregonlive.com/science/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/science/119258255113790.xml&coll=7

[TheBaron]

Plain and simply disgusting. The same has been happening in the UK. Is this civilisation where a dog is held on a higher level than a human being!

Even if the technology is in its infancy - using it on dogs in such a blatantly public manner shows the safety of these procedures when done properly by real and genuine doctors.

Why not go on a nationwide clinical trial? If the state is worried about being sued by those who deem they should at a later date, then disclaimers and contracts of assuming risk and responsibility can be made.

Would it not be better for the government to regulate this and offer it as an experimental treatment at $3000 and have that money directed into the research to continue refining the therapy rather than leave people exposed to some with only money in their head rather than helping people out? For those with degenerative diseases who might be living like a person on death row this should be allowed under supervision and monitoring as well as documentation.

If it is safe for dogs and horses it is safe for humans. Is it not on animals that official research starts on before going into clinical trials? So why allow the charade of people flying to far and flung places like China or driven over the border to Mexico?

Or am I plain and simply naive?

[barbara]

Isn't that the truth! Also, the Stem Enhance product is made for equine, feline and canine so it is obvious that stem cell treatments of varying kinds are available for these critters. I have no clue why we need to remain in the dark ages, funding studies with rodents that take years to accomplish what is already known. It is ridiculous and a total waste of money and lives. Thank heavens that most of us can travel and take advantage of countries who are more progressive. I think everyone would have to ask why Fido or Fifi can go get helped and their caretakers can't legally. Absolutely pathetic in my mind.

[rosech44]

Now that irritates me, I am only 89 miles from Portland----I could have taken some of my fat, OF WHICH I HAVE PLENTY--- sent it to them, got my injection and saved my self thousands of dollars!!!!

ONLY IN AMERICA!!!!!

Rose:(

[barbara]

Rose - You're a riot. It does frost you though doesn't it? I have kept the 16 pounds off that I lost after my treatment. I attribute it to my newfound energy and also the stem cell diet. I think you will see some results too once you start breathing better. It just takes time. I wish it was an overnight treatment, but I am grateful there is any treatment. A year or two ago, there was no hope, so I guess I had better not do any complaining.

[sp1d3rdan]

well hopefully stem cell therapy will be used very very soon.

Apparently this plastic surgeon plans on using stem cells and fat to do breast augmentation this year. It seems that once we are paying out of our pocket for cosmetic reasons we can get whatever we want.

When it comes to saving lives or curing disease it is much more difficult to get things done. Strange that cosmetic applications may be the first soft tissue treatment in the U.S. that is available using stem cells.

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/general/view.bg?articleid=1037970

[hlichten]

Government COULD regulate such things in England or Canada under socialized medicine, but not currently in the USA.

While we are waiting for the legislation to kick in, perhaps a hip replacement for your poodle?

Harv

Plain and simply disgusting. The same has been happening in the UK. Is this civilisation where a dog is held on a higher level than a human being!

Even if the technology is in its infancy - using it on dogs in such a blatantly public manner shows the safety of these procedures when done properly by real and genuine doctors.

Why not go on a nationwide clinical trial? If the state is worried about being sued by those who deem they should at a later date, then disclaimers and contracts of assuming risk and responsibility can be made.

Would it not be better for the government to regulate this and offer it as an experimental treatment at $3000 and have that money directed into the research to continue refining the therapy rather than leave people exposed to some with only money in their head rather than helping people out? For those with degenerative diseases who might be living like a person on death row this should be allowed under supervision and monitoring as well as documentation.

If it is safe for dogs and horses it is safe for humans. Is it not on animals that official research starts on before going into clinical trials? So why allow the charade of people flying to far and flung places like China or driven over the border to Mexico?

Or am I plain and simply naive?

[sp1d3rdan]

I think I'm going to go to my vet in a dog costume. He could then extract my fat and send it to vet-stem and give me treatment for less then $3000.

This is racism or speci-ism.

[hlichten]

Bottom line:
It is far easier to get veterinary treatments approved for use on animals than to get FDA or such approval for use on humans for any treatment for any condition, stem cells or otherwise.

That doesn't mean that feet aren't being dragged when it comes to stem cells and humans....they are, but it is always going to take longer to anything to be approved for human use. Randomized, double-blind studies, and peer-reviewed publications are not necessary in the treatment of horses, dogs and cats. There are also a lot of products used on pets that are unsafe, bad products, where further testing would have prevented their sale.

This has nothing to do with the expensive treatments for pets, which I personally strongly oppose. However, if someone has money, and wants to spend thousands on the treatment of a pet, that can't be regulated in a free society.

Harv


I think I'm going to go to my vet in a dog costume. He could then extract my fat and send it to vet-stem and give me treatment for less then $3000.

This is racism or speci-ism.

[sp1d3rdan]

I agree that there are a lot more safety measures in place for humans. But I can't imagine that they've been using it on horses for over 4 years without allow humans that are in some cases dying.

They've allowed much more dangerous drugs to be tested much more quickly in this country. I believe that the drug companies have something to do with this languishing technology. I understand that it is difficult for drug companies to patent the use of any stem cell technology so they are slowing the process. Not to mention the government is not helping the process.

[Technocracy]

Let's also not forget just how large the Pet and Pet Care industry is in many countries.

In the United States alone it is Billions of Dollars a year. You can even purchase health insurance for your pet to help pay future veterinary bills. (This coverage is not cheap either.)

To many childless people, they consider that their pets ARE their children and they spend money on them accordingly. Many of us have seen the stories about the pet owner that dies and leaves the majority of their estate to their pets. Even ahead of their own children in some cases.

[TheBaron]

Let's also not forget just how large the Pet and Pet Care industry is in many countries.

In the United States alone it is Billions of Dollars a year. You can even purchase health insurance for your pet to help pay future veterinary bills. (This coverage is not cheap either.)

To many childless people, they consider that their pets ARE their children and they spend money on them accordingly. Many of us have seen the stories about the pet owner that dies and leaves the majority of their estate to their pets. Even ahead of their own children in some cases.

Yet these are the exception rather than the rule. Furthermore these are individuals who have chosen to spend their money on their pets for whatever the reason.

However is it not the case that it is the government that needs to deregulate an area of medicine such as this to even use on animals in a commercial setting?

The fact that the vet industry in the west is so big and lucrative detracts nothing from the human side of things.

For starters a society that values animals before humans (and that includes the UK) is on a slippery slope - and the only way is down!

Secondly, don't you think that if governments got off their backside and put their focus behind finding these cures there wouldn't be an industry such as the vet one to save lives?

I would go homeless now to see my little boy sorted. What's the use of owning anything when one lacks health and independence?

What needs to happen is for politicians to acquire political will they lost a long time ago, and focus on regenerative medicine and allow a national effort behind on the same scale that there was in the US when Kennedy decided to land on the moon. That's what needs to happen. No imagine key countries in Europe teaming up with the US with the same aim!

A lot of diseases would have certainly been improved in not 100% cured a long time ago if people and country came first to the governments these elect.

[Technocracy]

Yet these are the exception rather than the rule. Furthermore these are individuals who have chosen to spend their money on their pets for whatever the reason.

However is it not the case that it is the government that needs to deregulate an area of medicine such as this to even use on animals in a commercial setting?

The fact that the vet industry in the west is so big and lucrative detracts nothing from the human side of things.

For starters a society that values animals before humans (and that includes the UK) is on a slippery slope - and the only way is down!

Secondly, don't you think that if governments got off their backside and put their focus behind finding these cures there wouldn't be an industry such as the vet one to save lives?

I would go homeless now to see my little boy sorted. What's the use of owning anything when one lacks health and independence?

What needs to happen is for politicians to acquire political will they lost a long time ago, and focus on regenerative medicine and allow a national effort behind on the same scale that there was in the US when Kennedy decided to land on the moon. That's what needs to happen. No imagine key countries in Europe teaming up with the US with the same aim!

A lot of diseases would have certainly been improved in not 100% cured a long time ago if people and country came first to the governments these elect.


At least in my experience, the care people devote to their pets is not as much of an exception as you would expect. People in the US, spend an amazing amount of money on pets.


I seems to me that societies in general has had human life and human worth cheapend considerably since the 60s.


An unintended consequence of:

Several decades of violent movies, violent music, cable news and the 24/7 news cycle. Blood and death everywhere with no end to it, over time people become inured to the sight of it to the point where shows dramatizing organize crime and murder are considered mainstream.

Massive government initiatives designed more to lock people into a regulated health plan and keep them there, rather than cure them.

Those are two of the obvious things, there are many more. Some I will not delve into in these forums because they are some of the biggest political hot potatoes of our times.


Every year life gets a little cheaper to people and the value of human life itself gets even lower.

For decades now, the cry from the people has been me...me....me.
Yet at the same time the suicide rate gets higher every year.

Back in the 50s and early to mid 60s, society was about we, not me.

When that letter got inverted it turned all of society upside down with it.


(My opinion - Your mileage may vary)

[barbara]

You make some good points Baron. The problem lies in that so many people vote like sheep. They do not understand the consequences of what they are doing. There are laws to cover almost everything. They believe that they have done the right thing in voting in a new law that may cause another person or business to suffer greatly. They don't think things through because the next time, it could happen to them. As far as the pet industry goes, it may be run by much broader minded people who realize that people do love their pets and will pay a lot of money to help them and keep them well. I do not see that this has much to do with the argument about human health care personally, except to moan and groan about the state things are in. If people truly wanted better care and cures, there would be a mass uprising and candidates who felt the same would be elected. Instead, the me attitude is so overpowering that everyone wants to get it all for "free". They don't realize how expensive "free" really is. They have been programmed to think they need drugs from cradle to grave and cure is always just around the corner as millions are raised for charities each year all in the name of some disease. I don't buy into it myself. I think cure is a dirty word to the large pharmaceutical companies and I don't think the charities are far behind. Just my opinion and that's all.

[sp1d3rdan]

Cures are bad for big Pharma. After all if they cured most chronic illnesses then there would be billions of drug companies and doctors out of work.

Stem Cell may be a revolution just like the industrial and technology eras. It will put health care and drug companies out. Since they cannot make money off the cures they are not investing in stem cell research. It is then up to government to make the investment and unfortunately they have not done it.

Right now it is more or less private investment from other countries that are driving stem cell breakthroughs. It seems that everyday I read another article on how some researcher at some US university made some discovery that stem cells helps rats with lung disease. They are just duplicating what scientists in Thailand, Mexico, or Russia have already figured out in humans.

I miss the days when American scientists made the breakthroughs and the world followed our lead. Honestly I don't care where cures are discovered as long as they are available to us.

[hlichten]

We can only really say that stem cell research has been suppressed and underfunded to this point, the rest of it is up for argument.

Scientists would argue that not enough is known about stem cells yet, which is related to the underfunding also.

Stem cells are not going to cure or aid everything. There are always going to be diseases and ailments for which there is no true cure. Stem cells may be shown to aid some ailments, but not provide an entire cure.

I fully disagree with you. The healthcare industry and the drug industry are in no danger whatsoever from stem cell technology advancement.

We are 3 to 10 years away from stem cell treatments being FDA approved here, and insurance companies are still not going to cover them, at least to begin with.

By then, science will be looking for something new.

Harv

Cures are bad for big Pharma. After all if they cured most chronic illnesses then there would be billions of drug companies and doctors out of work.

Stem Cell may be a revolution just like the industrial and technology eras. It will put health care and drug companies out. Since they cannot make money off the cures they are not investing in stem cell research. It is then up to government to make the investment and unfortunately they have not done it.

[sp1d3rdan]

Thanks for your opinion Harv. Naturally there will always be disease and dying. I certainly hope that stem cells cures or treats most of this worlds chronic conditions.

A dose of realism is hard to listen to as we all want to start feeling better right now. I think that in the meantime the stem cell treatments abroad will become more and more reliable before they are offered here in the U.S.

I do disagree that "to much is not known about stem cells" thus there is a lack of funding. Usually if too little is known about something and the potential is there, more funding is provided rather than less. Before Christopher Reeve died, he said, "Before man went to the moon they had the vision and not the technology, now we have the technology but not the vision."

There are more political than technological roadblocks for stem cell researchers in the U.S. Regardless I agree with you. In about 3 years we will see the first round of adult stem cell therapies. I think if those are safe the next round of treatments will be very quickly approved by the FDA. 10 years I suspect there will be more than just a few diseases being treated by stem cells here in the US.

[barbara]

Harv - I can't agree that drug companies do not feel some threat to their wellbeing when something like this shows so much promise. They cannot patent stem cells, so it is of little interest to them. They would still have millions of users of drugs to work with, but not to the excessive amount that are currently in use. I think it plays a big role. Also, drug companies often sponsor continuing education for doctors. They are not about to give them courses on stem cell therapy. Therefore, many doctors continue in complete oblivion as to what is going on in the stem cell arena. This is true of any alternative medicine in my opinion. Laser, HBOT, acupuncture, stem cells. These things do not involve drugs and therefore very little progress is being made into making them available for patients.

[Technocracy]

I agree with Harv but for different reasons.

Government over-regulation does much to stifle private investment in research in this country. That is one factor.

Second factor
Most research grant money comes from one of two sources....

A. Government research grants - many of which won't give you a grant unless the beaurocracy approves of your research focus. Thereby directing the research focus, albiet very poorly.

B. Private grants from industry - industry in this instance mainly being pharmacaeutical companies, health insurance companies, and supporting industry such as chemical companies (Dow Corning for instance). Again the flow of money is being controlled in the research arena, and what the grant givers do not like they do not help fund. This directs research focus just like in item A, however in this case there is more awareness of how things are influenced, even if they cant get along with each other well enough to act in unison on anything



Like the Golden Rule says.....He who has the gold, makes the rules.



I do however believe that the sad state of research in this arena is caused by this.

And further I do not subscribe to or necessarily believe that it is conscious effort on the part of either Government or industry.


To my mind it is far more plausible that beaurocratic incompetence on the part of the government heterodynes very badly with self interest on the part of industry in this instance.

While the results negatively influence research in the bio-technology sector as in the case of stem cell research. By the same token there is not any real return for the government or the industry where the money is being spent. Meaning research that is about as close to wasted as such can be.

If either the government or industry had any direction or ability to manage the research effort there would be some return, even if it was in unexpected directions.

The drug companies are actually missing the boat on this one in some ways. Stem cell therapy, at least at this early stage, will not replace most prescription drug use.

Drug companies could also get in on the vitamin/supplement side of it now and then expand in that direction. Not an insignificant revenue stream in modern society. Especially given the high focus in recent years on diet, exercise, vitamins, supplements, etc.



My position is that I won't attribute clever manipulation to either government or industry that is easily explained by stupidity and incompetence.:rolleyes:



As I said, I agree with Harv, but for differing reasons.;)

[barbara]

Tony - Drug companies are already trying to get into the vitamin/supplement business in my opinion by trying to get them regulated by the FDA. I think this would be a real fiasco. I don't think they are pushing this in terms of thinking ahead to things like stem cell research replacing lots of prescribed medicines. I think it is just one more step in the direction of massive greed. We don't need government intervention in every facet of our lives, especially when this intervention may be for the benefit of huge corporations and not the end user.

[hlichten]

In fact, stem cell therapy, as it is perfected could involve more and more new drug developement.

Consider...you may be able to swallow pills that will trigger certain stem cells within you from being released.

As I said, just too early to know, but science, medicine and pharmacy are not about to die.

Harv


...Stem cell therapy, at least at this early stage, will not replace most prescription drug use...

[hlichten]

Let's hope that they become more reliable. I have already paid for one very expensive treatment in Thailand this year that did nothing that I or any doctor can detect, and am headed off later this week for a second treatment in Germany.

Harv


...A dose of realism is hard to listen to as we all want to start feeling better right now. I think that in the meantime the stem cell treatments abroad will become more and more reliable before they are offered here in the U.S. ...

[barbara]

Now that I will agree on Harv. (post #21). Interesting discussion really.

[Technocracy]

Tony - Drug companies are already trying to get into the vitamin/supplement business in my opinion by trying to get them regulated by the FDA. I think this would be a real fiasco. I don't think they are pushing this in terms of thinking ahead to things like stem cell research replacing lots of prescribed medicines. I think it is just one more step in the direction of massive greed. We don't need government intervention in every facet of our lives, especially when this intervention may be for the benefit of huge corporations and not the end user.


I agree with not needing government intervention.

Government almost never does anyone any good, but consistently does harm in one form or another. In good measure because its primary focus is always perpetuating and increasing itself, rather than serving the people it is supposed to be working for.


The drug company + FDA combination is a fiasco indeed.

The greed wouldnt even bother me so much if they actually did anything that would be worth the cost, or even a good part of the cost. The incompetence at every level in both groups forbids that from happening however.

[Technocracy]

Let's hope that they become more reliable. I have already paid for one very expensive treatment in Thailand this year that did nothing that I or any doctor can detect, and am headed off later this week for a second treatment in Germany.

Harv


Good luck Harv,

I sincerely hope it helps you.

[hlichten]

Good luck Harv,

I sincerely hope it helps you.

THANK YOU !!
I do too!!


The drug company + FDA combination is a fiasco indeed.

Now THAT is the real truth!

Harv

[sp1d3rdan]

Harv,

Yes I wish you luck on your treatment!
A little optimism goes a long way.

[TheBaron]

In fact, stem cell therapy, as it is perfected could involve more and more new drug developement.

Consider...you may be able to swallow pills that will trigger certain stem cells within you from being released.

As I said, just too early to know, but science, medicine and pharmacy are not about to die.

Harv

Have to agree with you here 100%. This is what baffles me with the drug industry - stem cells by themselves will not necessarily do the job.

Moreover, for the government not to fund research because of no apparent immediate return is really naive! Firstly the cost of treating people just to maintain and keep disease and other conditions at bay is expensive. Secondly if more people survived then there are more to pay tax!

In the UK it is a bit different and the government has a big incentive to drive and fund the research. The UK has a national health funded by national insurance contributions and the government and is free. In this case the government ought to have all the interest to pursue cures and treatments which greatly reduce this bill!

I wish you all the luck with your treatment Harv and a full and speedy recovery.

[TheBaron]

Barbara, I do not know what's holding the UK government from putting a real focus and national effort behind finding stem cell treatments.

For instance in Israel there is the political will and the government there has driven for the establishment of a Stem Cell consortium. No imagine if key countries in Europe, together with the US, Japan, China and Australia teamed up and with government assistance with measures to lessen red tape, easier sharing of information between research labs and a view to make all these research labs involved into one large international lab.

We are talking here of one of the best chances in history to eradicate some very nasty diseases and conditions which true on one hand means a bigger pension bill but on the other the strain of the health service will be greatly reduced.

The hypocracy in all this is deeper than we even think. For example, the UK biggest export industry in tobacco! The government spends millions in campaigns to allegedly stop people smoking. However it is not in the government's interest for people to stop smoking! Why so? It is so because the value of UK sales for all the tobacco products listed above amounted to ?12.1 billion.

Now the government makes an even bigger profit on the back of smokers! Cigarette taxation in the UK is the highest in the world, making cigarettes, on average, more than twice as expensive as elsewhere. As I mentioned already people in the UK spend about ?12 billion pounds on cigarette products of which nearly ?10 billion is tax.

With this in mind, is the government really going to actively seek the reduction of the number of people smoking when this will mean a reduction in the ?10 billion tax income for the government.

On the other hand, stem cell treatment of cancer in this example might mean that people will smoke more than ever before because there is a cure?

[sp1d3rdan]

Unfortunately I think there is great competition between countries and labs. There is opportunity to profit from stem cells and sharing would allow some other labs to jump ahead. Although in many ways the competition is good as they must work harder and faster to find cures before others.

The good thing is that the money is finally starting to flow into stem cell research. Unfortunately I think it may take many years before these treatments or cures will be available for us.

I do believe that when the first stem cell treatments have been out for a year or so, other stem cell treatments will follow very quickly as the FDA will assume that they are safe for other treatments.

[barbara]

My dream is that in a few years, anyone reading these posts, will shake their heads in disbelief at what we are all going through to regain our lives, not just for ourselves, but for others. I think our forum members are doing a bang up job helping enlighten others and I truly want to thank all of you for your participation. I have learned so much from all of you. We have a great group here and we are to congratulate ourselves for that. I am in an enthusiastic mood today because I am feeling great. Thinking back to last fall, I only remember laying around on the couch all the time. I was very ill. So here's to obsolescence of this forum as it is now. May the not too distant future forum be full of stem cell success stories. Cheers everyone!

Also, The Baron makes some excellent points. Many people only think our governments are looking out for our welfare. The tobacco example he gives it certainly a good one. Billions of U.S. dollars are poured into eradicating diseases in many third world countries and yet here in my home country, progress and spending to help me or my fellow citizens through stem cell research is poor. I personally hate to even think of a government/FDA alliance on research and future development of stem cell therapy. I think this is not the way to go. Scientists here in the U.S. are strapped when they try to work within the law. The FDA is all about human safety and it will slow things up even though there would be so many people willing to volunteer to have stem cell treatment for clinical trials. It is no wonder that stem cell companies choose to work in countries that are "stem cell friendly".

[jdog]

i think its money issues too. If a treatment works its big money to try and find a way to monoplize it. No one would pay for an animal like they would pay for themseleves.

Plus lets face it, think of all the unnecessary pain medications of they could start curing and preventing disease. They'd lose billions.

At least we know the technology exist and thats something worth fighting for.

[jdog]

Also i read that susposedly a company in socal is aiming to start cosmetic stem cell fat thearpy in 2008. dont know the reality of it however.

[TheBaron]

I agree with Barbara about the government's involvement in the lack of progress. If US history teaches us nothing it teaches us one very fundamental lesson. It is people at base level who bring change and it is down to community, society and a nation to pick itself up, face its challenges grabbing the bull by the horns and doing something about it.

It was like that for US independence and then the civil war and any other major event in the US.

The private sector needs to be allowed to take the lead. There will be quacks on the way but only individuals will thread where government will never dare. That's how the west was won and that's what pushed the gold rush!

The government's beligearant stance is short sighted. I wish and hope that a country like China makes a break through - then you will see if the government will continue dragging their feet.

With others using stem cells for cosmetics this is good! The more the technlogy is used and refined the less ground called "safety" is left to stand on!